Dining across the divide: ‘You can’t impose your western outlook down the barrel of a gun’

Tom, 34, Surrey

Occupation Works in the content policy team of a social media company. Before Covid, worked for the British embassy in Afghanistan

Voting record Always Liberal Democrat

Amuse bouche He was nine years old on 9/9/99. His local newspaper took an aerial photo of his classmates on the playground in the shape of a nine

Paul, 56, Manchester

Occupation Corporate development professional

Voting record Backs the candidate rather than the party. Describes himself as “an extreme Graham Brady-ite”, in reference to the Tory grandee, now a peer

Amuse bouche At 18 he was briefly arrested for the attempted assassination of Mobutu, then-president of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. He and his travel companion looked rather conspicuous on the day the president was opening a school in the next village, “so ipso facto, clearly we were South African mercenaries there to assassinate him”

For starters

Tom We were both slightly deflated that the menu was all vegetarian. But the food was great. We had an array of small plates. I was quite impressed with the dal.

Paul My daughter’s vegetarian, so whenever I’m out without them I take the opportunity to have meat. But it was very nice – the best thing I had was a paneer cheese kebab, and a brilliant beer from the taproom.

The big beef

Related: Dining across the divide: ‘I think the EU should be divided into two, east and west’

Tom We agreed Britain’s involvement in Afghanistan was hubristic. Was it about women’s rights, neutralising al-Qaida, cutting off a source of heroin on UK streets? But I think Paul felt it was none of our business and a waste of time.

Paul It took us a few hundred years to construct the societies we live in. It doesn’t happen overnight. I think you can support change, but you can’t impose your western outlook down the barrel of a gun.

Tom There was, unlike in Iraq, a wholly legal basis for militarily intervening. Post-9/11, the Taliban hosting Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida is clearly a legitimate basis to go to war.

Paul There was a moral obligation to get out people who were our translators or working in the consulate and clearly at risk of being killed by the Taliban. But I don’t see the Taliban taking control as carte blanche for the rest of Afghanistan to end up in Britain.

Sharing plate

Tom Paul started speaking about small boats and “illegal” asylum seekers, how it’s just a mess. But it is so hard to claim asylum by a legal route, outside dedicated asylum schemes. If you’re in a dictatorship in Eritrea, for example, it’s almost impossible – and that’s an intentional decision we’ve made.

Paul I think the small boats have led to a perception issue: if you actually look at the numbers of people it’s not that many, but it’s a loss of control.

For afters

Paul I’m a Brexiter: I think it’s dangerous to have a political system that no one understands or can be bothered to understand. I think democracy can operate at a local level where you can actually see the things you vote for. Tom agreed, but his view was that it’s a bit extreme to break a system that isn’t working when you can reform things.

Tom My remedy is: stay in despite the imperfections. That would be so much better for us in so many ways, most obviously economically. We’re not the most attractive market in the world, we’re not even 70 million people. And it’s been proven: we haven’t got these promised, fabulous trade deals that would have opened up new markets and opportunities.

Takeaways

Paul It’s sad that there’s such a limited amount of proper debate. It’s easy to do – but there’s often a focus on gotcha moments, and I partially hold the BBC responsible for this. If we could focus on what the problems are, and the ways we can solve them, we might come up with a common solution.

Tom The main thing that really came through is that even though superficially we have radically different points of view, when you probe at the issues, the values that underpin them are quite similar. We’ve just arrived at different conclusions. There are other points of view that are reasonable and legitimate, and I might disagree with them strongly, but you can hold them and that’s fine. That was quite powerful, actually.

Additional reporting: Kitty Drake

• Paul and Tom ate at Bundobust in Manchester.

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